Talk:Berkov
Did Berkov die? I remember hearing Arlo Glass saying there were seven bodies at Novakovich's suite. Unless Jack killed someone off-screen or the said body was Ivan, who was merely unconscious. Ggjk 03:13, May 25, 2010 (UTC) : Yep I noticed the same exact thing. Besides the 2 guards and 3 other guys in the main room, the only other corpse we see is Novakovich's. We just don't know if there was a fourth body behind a wall that the camera didn't show us, or if Berkov himself expired. Ivan is not a possibility, they wouldn't refer to a living person as a "body". One of those little things we'll never figure out. 04:09, May 25, 2010 (UTC) I think Berkov died from his wounds.When Jack asked Ivan how many guards upstairs,Ivan said"One outside the suite,two inside,another by elevator."So there were totally 4 guards upstairs,including Berkov,without any other guard.So i'm pretty sure he died from his wounds. --William.Y.Fremont 14:50, June 1, 2010 (UTC) :Probably, but since he was last seen alive and we don't know if there was another unseen guard we leave the status as "Unknown", and add a note explaining what was said. Thief12 15:29, June 1, 2010 (UTC) :: Wow I actually hadn't thought of those details. On the face of it, with the simple math, I'm convinced he's dead too. That's important enough to go in a note on the page at the very least. 05:16, June 2, 2010 (UTC) He's dead.Why don't we change his status to deceased？-- 13:22, June 18, 2010 (UTC) : For the reason Thief mentioned above. It's possible that Ivan gave the incorrect number and there was an unseen guard who was killed. It's unlikely but possible, I suppose. 18:57, June 18, 2010 (UTC) ::All right.Let's see this picture in clockwise order. The top-right guy is "Novakovich's bodyguard #3", the one below's "Novakovich's bodyguard #4", then "Novakovich's bodyguard #5" and Mikhail himself. Since there was no one else besides Berkov in the lobby, the corpse in the middle of picture in definitely Berkov. Any thoughts? --William.Y.Fremont 13:29, March 14, 2011 (UTC) :::I don't know this episode very well, but these clearly aren't all shots of different people (I mean there are two of Mikhail). I'm not sure how u identified the top picture which is just a pair of legs, but I would say the middle corpse could be either of the first two corpses from a different angle--Acer4666 14:04, March 14, 2011 (UTC) ::::I've compared the picture with their death scenes and clothes (the top picture isn't a pairof legs, it's a face and an arm). And the middle corpse is definitely not either of the first two corpses. First, guard #3 was killed in the corridor and guard #4 died with a massive pool of blood around him. Secondary, if you look the picture closely, you can see little ofMikhail's body. And Berkov's the only one near Mikhail. Thirdly, the corpse has black hair. Thoughts? --William.Y.Fremont 14:19, March 14, 2011 (UTC) :::::Ok cool, like Blue Rook I don't have the dvd's so can't verify (but I don't see a pool of blood around pic #2 that u claim is guard #4). But I guess if Berkov was the only guy next to Mikhael then that corpse could be him, although he might not be dead he could just be on the floor cos of his injuries - but then again that argument could be applied to every dead character seen! From looking at the discussion I'd say Berkov is deceased but I shouldn't really be involved in this discussion without having seen the episode since last year, --Acer4666 17:57, March 14, 2011 (UTC) I'm having an extreme amount of difficulty making anything out in that picture, especially the middle one, which looks like a lamp and a table with a mass of colors. I may be able to check into this when I get Season 8 DVDs. 15:06, March 14, 2011 (UTC) :I've enlarged the middle part of the picture. I don' think it's necessary to check the DVDs cos Mikhail's other 3 guards didn't die in thay way. You can compare the photo with On-screen kills by Jack Bauer's S8K34, S8K35 and S8K36. So none of them is that corpse. Since Berkov was the only one seen alive earlier in the lobby, that must be him. (I think the writers intend to tell us Berkov's dead by those detail numbers I mentioned above, but you guys didn't buy it) --William.Y.Fremont 11:03, March 15, 2011 (UTC) ::I buy it! I'd be willing to support Berkov being deceased, I think the shot of the corpse, coupled with berkov being the only guy near Mikhael, is just as compelling evidence as some of the other confirmed deaths we have. Interesting question - would this make him Jack Bauer's last kill, even though Jack inflicted injuries on him before the ones on Mikhael?--Acer4666 11:16, March 15, 2011 (UTC) :::As I see on the picture, I believe this is him too. He could move a bit forward and die. I'm sure it's Berkov.--Station7 12:23, March 15, 2011 (UTC) ::::Actually I have another idea. See the wound on his head and the blood around the head? I think it's a gunshot wound. My opinion is Mikhail was shot to death by Bauer, then Jack stuck the fireplace poker into his stomach to release his anger. So I think Jack killed Mikhail first and Berkov died of his wounds later. --William.Y.Fremont 14:31, March 15, 2011 (UTC) ::: Well, of course Mikhail died first. ::: The rest of those ideas are very conjectural. The wound on Novakovich's head may be a skin break caused by a severe blow. If it was a gunshot, then perhaps he was shot after Jack impaled him. We just cannot know the order of events, besides the fact that the fireplace poker is the obvious choice as cause of death in the list. ::: On another, but related topic, where is Novakovich in File:Berkov-corpse.jpg? I'm not clear on whether he is visible in that picture or not. 23:46, March 15, 2011 (UTC) ::::It looks like Mikhail's hand or something behind the chair. I'm not certain about that,but that doesn't matter. BTW, please check Talk:Doc Duhame. And the SS agent had line. --William.Y.Fremont 09:59, March 16, 2011 (UTC) ::: Regarding Berkov, at this point I'm convinced you're correct. Three pieces of evidence support it: the count provided by Ivan (Day 8), the death count reported by Arlo, but most importantly, the presence of this corpse... I'm sold. Arlo didn't say anything about a survivor, right? It was implied that they were all wiped out anyway. ::: If there is no dissent, and you do change this, we have to remember to update the OSK list and the Deaths on 24 list too. 19:41, March 16, 2011 (UTC) ::::I suppose he is technically Jack's last kill of the series, even if he did "kill" him before he "killed" Novakovich--Acer4666 19:50, March 16, 2011 (UTC) ::: EH? 20:05, March 16, 2011 (UTC) ::::As in, Jack shot Berkov then stabbed Mikhael (maybe...). Jack caused the death of Berkov before he caused the death of Mikhael, so I guess it could be argued that Mikhael was the last person he "killed" (ie caused the death of). I'm not arguing that per se, I just thought it was interesting to note.--Acer4666 20:16, March 16, 2011 (UTC) ::: We don't know anything about the order in which Jack inflicted injuries. Even if we did, Jack killed Berkov last because, as we're determining here, Berkov died last. Nobody ever says —in reference to a multiple slaying — that the person who received mortal wounds first was the first to be killed if they in fact died later. That's just... weird. We'd put Berkov at the end of the list and then say in his description that he died of his wounds after everyone else. 21:12, March 16, 2011 (UTC) ::::Ok sorry, this is not my opinion, I'm not arguing they be listed in that order, I am just playing devil's advocate to show that perhaps it could be interpreted differently by others. ::::The on-screen kills article is not report on a multiple slaying as a past event, we are making a list of Jack's actions throughout the series. And yes we don't know the order - perhaps Jack "came in shooting", when Berkov was definitely present, left him unharmed, pissed around with a fire poker to impale Mikhael, then went to deal with Berkov. But that's unlikely. ::::All I'm saying is that I think it's possible other people might still see Mikhael as Bauer's last kill. And perhaps that is worthy of a note on the on-screen kills article - "Although Berkov was the last character killed by Jack to die, it is highly likely that Jack inflicted his wounds before Mikhael's". Just so you're clear what I'm proposing - but if you think that sort of note is too weird a logical step then fair enough--Acer4666 01:29, March 17, 2011 (UTC) :::::Also Blue Rook, I hate to be macabre and in terrible bad taste, but check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre and you'll see that "injuries and deaths" is listed in order of when they were shot, despite the fact that the order of death was different.--Acer4666 02:09, March 17, 2011 (UTC) It's very like that Novakovich was wounded last, everyone knows that, for sure. You can add that note you brought up of course. But this list doesn't care about it. It's about who expired first. The Columbine list you're showing me is more interested in the chronology of the actual shootings because it's trying to show readers how the rampage unfolded. This list for Jack only defaults to the visuals when the chronology isn't known... in Berkov's case, the chronology of the deaths is clear. He died after everyone else. If someone comes along and claims that Novakovich was Jack's final kill, they'd be patently wrong unless they have evidence that Berkov didn't die. 05:44, March 18, 2011 (UTC) :Ok cool. I will add the note, once the list is changed. This is my final say on this (:P) but suppose that Jack had turned the gun on himself after the massacre - we would list Berkov after Jack (essentially stating "after killing himself, Jack then killed Berkov"). However I do accept, for balance, that listing them the other way leads to a statement of "after being killed by Jack, Berkov then radioed in the incident". So it seems, to me at least, that it's not completely clear-cut of which way is definitively right. But I'm happy with them in order of death, along with a note about the high likelihood of the order of Jack's actions.--Acer4666 10:07, March 18, 2011 (UTC) :: The word "killed" isn't used unless the person dies at the moment. "After killing himself, Jack then killed Berkov" is insane! You'd say "after inflicting mortal wounds on himself, Jack then killed Berkov". It would also be helpful to say "He bled to death afterward" or something like that. :: Perhaps in some highfalutin literary sense, you might find a phrase like "he killed himself then another guy" but this project is not literature. 13:26, March 18, 2011 (UTC)